Earth's Polar Ice Melting Less Than Thought - US News and World Report

space guy

I don't know how many times in the last couple of years there have been programs like NOVA and National Geographic with a Scientist standing on the ground where 20 years ago he would be standing on top of a Glacier. Now the Glacier is 5 miles back up it's valley. There is no doubt that 80% of the worlds Glaciers are melting when will they melt completely away is another question.

20 years ago he would be standing on top of a Glacier. Now the Glacier is 5 miles back up it's valley.

and 20 to 100 years before that the glacier was many more miles on down the valley.

Point is they have been melting and, on average, receding since the last ice age.

when will they melt completely away is another question.

Quite possibly never. Possibly in the times they say. We can't say for sure, only guess.

Stumpjumper

"and 20 to 100 years before that the glacier was many more miles on down the valley."

The spike in global temperature due to the Industrial Revolution has been speeding up the melting of the Glaciers.

"Point is they have been melting and, on average, receding since the last ice age."

Point is, since the start of the Industrial Revolution the melting has been accelerating.

Point is, since the start of the Industrial Revolution the melting has been accelerating.

and how do we know that considering most records of glaciers are not that old. Some of them only have accurate records since the 1940s. Oldest record I have seen was from 1846 for one glacier, but they were not very precise.

http://ppg.sagepub.com/content/26/1/76.short

from the link:

"The paper reviews measurements of glacier mass balance in the period 1946-95. There are data for 246 glaciers but most records are quite short."

Some glaciers you can tell where they have been by the moraines. Little bit harder when the glacier ends in water.

What if the glaciers receding are causing them to recede faster? Especially for the ones that end in water.

Just keeping an open mind.

Google up Venice Italy and stop being ignorant..........................

MajorT, the ocean is not rising around Venice as much as is Venice is sinking into the ocean.

Like they say, the same tide lifts all boats, ........ and the same sea level rise affects all ports worldwide.

Iffen da sea level has risen around Venice ...... then it has risen the same amount around Florida.

7.9 inches during the 20th century.

SamC

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/transcripts/2914_venice.html

I know Venice is sinking but the Oceans are rising at the same time. How much they are going to rise in the next 100 years, no one knows for sure but the consensus is that they will rise some more.

I know Venice is sinking but the Oceans are rising at the same time. How much they are going to rise in the next 100 years, no one knows for sure but the consensus is that they will rise some more.

MajorTom, and it won’t be the 1^st time the Oceans are rising, nor will any additional estimated rise in the next 100 years be as great as similar “risings” that have occurred in the past 20,000 years.

Like this 420+- feet Post Glacial Sea Level Rise that occurred between 20,000 and 9,000 years BP.

Or the amount of rise that surely accompanied the extensive melting of glaciers because of the increased temperatures during the Holocene Climate Optimum that occurred between 8,000 and 4,000 years BP.

And MajorTom, proof of that extensive melting of glaciers is the fact that Hannibal marched his 40,000 man army and herd of elephants across the Alps to attack the Romans in 218 BC, a feat that documented history proves he accomplished and which would be impossible to repeat in 2012 because of the many glaciers and/or heavy snowpack now blocking any similar crossing of the Alps.

And to verify said fact I did some checking and sure enough, Global Temperatures based on temperature proxies of the Sargasso Sea that covers the past 3,000 years gives credence to the fact that the snow and ice in the Alps must have been melting for more than 500 years starting about 750 BC, prior to Hannibal’s trip IN 218 BC. And there are other temperature proxies that will likewise confirm said.

Sam C

You might try explaining the problem posed in post #1.35 as well.

(#1.35) Sam C

You might try explaining the problem posed in post #1.35 as well.

This one, Que2646?

(#1.35) You might try doing the math: From your reference above the ocean is only rising 3.3 mm/year. The surface area of the oceans is about 361,000,000 km².

3.3x10-6 km/yr times 361,000,000 km² = 1190 cubic kilometers/yr.

Problem: Now all you have to do is to explain where all that water came from.

Que, the Little Ice Age began around 1400 when the average temperature started decreasing and as those temperatures decreased so did the temperature of the ocean waters. The LIA was at its coldest around 1600 and then the climate started warming back up with the global average temperatures slowly increasing. And as those global temperatures slowly increased so did the temperature of the ocean waters.

Que, given the above, it is therefore a FACT that the waters of the oceans have been slowly warming for the past 410 years.

And Que, another FACT is that when the temperature of liquid water increases from 4C to 100C, the total volume of that water will increase for every degree C, or fraction thereof, that its temperature increases. Thus, Que, 410 years of increasing ocean temperatures also means 410 years of increasing volume of ocean waters. And 410 years of increasing volume of ocean waters means 410 years of increasing sea levels. KAPISH??

So, you asked, “where did all that water came from”?

Que, my guess is, the majority of it came from the thermal expansion of the oceans waters.

Given the current estimated volume of the world's ocean is 1,310,302,000 cubic kilometers or 1.31 billion cubic kilometers ……. several degrees increase in temperature would increase its volume that would consequently increase sea levels.

cheers

Que, my guess is, the majority of it came from the thermal expansion of the oceans waters.

Good answer. You're onto something there. Research shows that thermal expansion now accounts for about half the sea level rise and melting land ice for the rest of it.

The Milankovitch cycles predict that we should be in a slow cooling period for the next 20,000 years, but in fact the Earth is warming. How do you account for that?

The Milankovitch cycles predict that we should be in a slow cooling period for the next 20,000 years, but in fact the Earth is warming. How do you account for that?

When did we enter this Milankovitch cycle? I am reading on it right now but haven't seen that info yet.

Truth hurts? I only mentioned that there were paid deniers on Newsvine. I mentioned no names.

cjcold,

Do you have a link to that. I read an article to that effect some time ago, but I have lost the reference.

cjcold, there are ways to say just about anything you want to say. You just have to be careful and use your right words. tact man tact!

Total lie Castor. 7.9 inches and climbing since the 20th century.

Is it funny that all of us land-locked states are so worried about sea level? Maybe we're afraid that all the displaced people will be moving in... :-)

shepherd0886, the Peri Reis map has always “bugged” me, per say. If in fact it is real it had to have been made during the previous Interglacial Period or sometime after the post glacial sea level rise of the current Interglacial Period, that is within the past 8,000 years.

Of course, it could have been surveyed “thru the ice” by ancient alien astronauts. And that wasn’t meant as a joke, either, because there is lots of historical evidence in South America that can not be explained by any other means.

Anyway, you should find the following an interesting scientific study, to wit:

Holocene Treeline History and Climate Change Across Northern Eurasia

Radiocarbon-dated macrofossils are used to document Holocene treeline history across northern Russia (including Siberia). Boreal forest development in this region commenced by 10,000 yr B.P. Over most of Russia, forest advanced to or near the current arctic coastline between 9000 and 7000 yr B.P. and retreated to its present position by between 4000 and 3000 yr B.P. Forest establishment and retreat was roughly synchronous across most of northern Russia. Treeline advance on the Kola Peninsula, however, appears to have occurred later than in other regions. During the period of maximum forest extension, the mean July temperatures along the northern coastline of Russia may have been 2.5° to 7.0°C warmer than modern. The development of forest and expansion of treeline likely reflects a number of complimentary environmental conditions, including heightened summer insolation, the demise of Eurasian ice sheets, reduced sea-ice cover, greater continentality with eustatically lower sea level, and extreme Arctic penetration of warm North Atlantic waters. The late Holocene retreat of Eurasian treeline coincides with declining summer insolation, cooling arctic waters, and neoglaciation. http://epic.awi.de/Publications/Mac2000c.pdf

SamC thank you for the link and yes that was a very interesting read. I may be misunderstanding some of the data but I keep coming away with the notion that often what seems like an intuitive answer to the question of shoreline configuration in any given climatological era is proving to be counter intuitive. In other words when you would normally expect sea levels to be higher and covering significant coastal land masses they in fact seem not to have done so.

Now I admit that I had not thought about the idea of thermal expansion. Logically that factor coupled with melting glacial and polar ice should actually increase the degree of coastal immersion in my mind. Yet when we talk about the Piri Reis maps it implies a no ice condition in Antarctica and would indicate that the shoreline should be much higher than that shown in today's sonar generated images. Yet the coastline depicted in those maps is pretty close to and consistant with what sonar images of today indicate. That really confuses me. LOL

Oh, and like you I am not above accepting the possibility that we have indeed been visited some time in the past by other intelligent beings. Actually there exists far more evidence to support that idea than has been pointed out in the South American regions. Michael Cremo wrote a book called "Forbidden Archaeology" that documents many unexplained anomalies in the archaeological record found all over the planet.

I have seen a couple with my own eyes. My paternal uncles worked in the coal mining industry for many years and the miners often found lumps of coal with all kinds of imprints of plants and fossilized creatures from very long ago. Two particular specimens were displayed at their mining museum in Southwestern Indiana for a while during their active mining in that area. One was a stitched shoe sole print in a lump of coal dated to two million years ago. Another was a nail imbedded inside another lump of coal that was also dated to over a million years ago. I have no idea where these specimens are now but I did actually see them when I was a teen ager over 50 years ago.

As I often say there is more to this old planet than our current science knows. We just haven't found all of the clues yet. There are numerous sites that have recently been discovered beneith the sea that tell a whole different story. Sites like the ones found off the coast of India that depict possible whole cities once thought to be only fictional or the megaliths found off the coast of Okinawa Japan indicate that there are potentially whole chapters of our global history that have yet to be revealed to us.

Shepherd, luv’ed your post, t’was a sign of an “original thinker”.

And you are right about the changing shoreline configuration because they haven’t changed much in the past 7,500 years since the big ”melting” ended. The archeological “dig” sites of homo habitation in close proximity to current shorelines that have been dated to be older than that surely proves it to be true. Those few millimeters and tenths of inches “increases” are “much ado about nothing” except Grant Fund Reporting.

Shep, if you want to see a graphic representation of coastal immersion then take a look at the now immersed coast where the Hudson Canyon resides and which begins at the outflow of the Hudson River at present day NYC and flowed across the Continental Shelf prior to the big “melting”. The outflow of the Hudson River “cut” that canyon before the sea levels rose that 450 feet (120m)

Click “here to see 1 graphic” …… and “here for another”.

And I have never read his book but that author is right about that "Forbidden Archaeology". Many researchers, especially the “old timers” prefer averting their eyes and their minds to certain discoveries and new theories, especially those that might or will prove contrary to what they have believed, preached and/or written books about all of their lives. They can foresee their notoriety, their importance, their job, their income and/or their future … going down the drain if said discoveries or theories become accepted by the “mainstream”. Like those who refuse to abandon the Out of Africa Theory and accept the more sensible Aquatic Ape Theory.

And Shep, here is something that I never, ever heard or read about until this past year. And I had to learn about it on an Antiques Questions Forum. To wit: North America's First Metal Miners & Metal Artisans

And yup, I’m a native WV’ian and I know bout coal n’ mining n’ railroading and the fact that many, many fossils have been found by those working to “dig it” and to “haul it”. My neighbor has a piece of petrified tree trunk that is bout 12” in diameter and 16” long that came out of a coal seam on a “strip job” he was working.

Whoa! Thanks for the link to the metal miners article. That was really interesting. I read an article about a water well drilling operation in Northern Ill. a couple of years ago. When they brought the drill head up to insert another section of casing for the shaft at several hundred feet down they found a hand crafted gold chain tangled in the bit with the mud. At first they thought someone had dropped it into the well shaft but when no one owned up to it they had the mud analyzed and dated. It proved to be several thousand years old based upon carbon dating of the plant matter embedded in the mud sample. When examined, the links of the chain were found to be manually fused using a pounding technique common to some ancient metal working methods used by indigenous local indian tribes of antiquity.

I noticed in this article that some of the copper artifacts contained native silver as well so it is not beyond possiblity that these people may have also mined and worked gold. As I often comment our current population seems to think that our ancestors were all brutish ignoramouses but I have a much higher opinon about their intellect and abilities. There are just too many examples of truly brilliant engineering in some of the constructs of antiquity like early examples of plumbing and drainage and unique methods of directing light and ventilation in their buildings.

As for sea levels rising and falling there is little question that has taken place. Large portions of Alexandria, for example, lie submerged beneith the surface of the Medditeranean Ocean. Also in many coastal regions throughout the world there exist trace remnants of towns and villages that have been submerged beneith the rising sea waters. Some of these, like Port Royal, may have been submerged due to tectonics or earthquake activities but most were simply gradually swallowed up by the rising waters. I still wonder just what else lies on our ocean floors all over our globe. We really know more about our neighboring planets than we do about our own seabed. Much of our history may still like dormant awaiting our discovery. LOL

There are just too many examples of truly brilliant engineering in some of the constructs of antiquity

Shep, and The Antikythera Mechanism is one of my favorites from more recent antiquity.

The way I see it is that most all researcher in/of antiquity have been nurtured (brainwashed) into having a “one track mind”, …… with the starting point of that track always beginning with “a Religious cause” (capital R).

I say that because it is quite obvious from all the literature that anytime anything has ever been discovered, the first question(s) posed by the discoverer or researcher is …. “I wonder what the Religious reason was for the making, building or constructing of this?”

And off on a tangent, down a wrong path to discovery, they go at a fast trot to prove said “Religious reason”.

No one knows for sure whether the Great Pyramid of Giza was constructed as a tomb for a Pharaoh, ….. a permanent “benchmark” to prove alien visitation ….. or as a per say “reflecting telescope” for astronomical research. I opt for one of the later two

Shepherd, when the present day Archeologists, College Professors and other similar “geniuses” attribute the construction of structures, ….. such as these stone ruins of Puma Punku, Peru, ……. to recent human activity during the past 3,000 to 7,000 years, ….. one has to ask “Where are the tools that were used to do the constructing?"

Copper chisels and wooden mallets would hardly have sufficed.

To insure their status and preserve their beliefs, their only logical answer to “Where are the tools" would have to be ........ "The Religious wackos destroyed all traces of them". But they don't have the nerve to make that claim.

SamC it sounds like you and I read and view a lot of the same material. LOL I see your point about the religious digression that so many often make. Once again we too often tend to think that our human ancestors were nothing but a bunch of ignorant oafs. Personally I find that rather insulting to our own species. Not every thought of our ancestors was couched in some magical mystique attributable to some religious theories. Sometimes they just made stuff for very practical reasons just as we do today. LOL Jobs and Gates back in those days would have probably been comparable to Gallileo or Michael Angelo. Both very intelligent and creative but with limited resources with which to work.

Another point to consider is that in most archaeological expiditions there is seldom a broad spectrum of science represented. Usually there is the archaeologist and perhaps a palentologist or a linguist if some translations are deemed necessary. Frankly most anomolous discoveries could be better interpreted if several scientific disciplines were able to study and evaluate the artifacts both in-situ and in the lab. In short sometimes we are just too focused to make proper interpretations of a given find. I have always been a bit disappointed at how archaeologists dismissed the Bagdad batteries as being almost an insignificant discovery. To me that was a leap in technology for our ancient ancestors and yet it was glossed over as some accidental discover that was used only for electroplating. Hello..... even that was rather amazing I think.

You mention the Antykythera Device and that particular find has always intrigued me for several reasons. First of all it appears to be a multifunctional device that could be used for navigation, seasonal predictions, and for astrological studies. Basically it was/is an analog computer. Now we have always "assumed" that early populations were pretty stationary and seldom traveled very far yet there is evidence everywhere of shared technologies and even possible trade between cultures from both hemispheres of our globe that predate much of our recorded history. Traces of New World herbs such as tobacco and cocaine in Eqyptian mummies tell of the trade of such substances with the cultures existing in the New World (AKA the Americas). Pyramid type constructions appearing in the Americas, the far East, and other places around the world tell of shared technologies and construction techniques. Thor Hyerdahl's journey across the Atlantic in a reed boat (Kon Tiki) proved the possibility of such journeys yet we continue to insist that such journeys simply didn't take place on a regular basis. I say poppy cock. That is how most of the Pacific islands were populated in prehistory. People are like cock roaches. If there is a place to go and a means to go their eventually they will do so.

Archaeology is a difficult science for a couple of reasons. First it is a very slow and laborious process to uncover and piece together and preserve finds for study. Secondly it is entirely dependent on ancient evidence that, unlike experiments in other sciences that can be easily reproduced to confirm their accuracy, are generally not reproducable. They can only be reconstruced intuitively from the discovered remains much like the modern day science of forensics recreates a crime scene. Therefore it is somewhat understandable that an archaeologist might become a bit defensive if one of their pet theories is challenged by new and unexplainable evidence. As you point out such discoveries could easily negate a lifetime's work for someone in that field. At that point it is more about reputation and not so much about pure science. LOL

That is why I am always so fascinated by new discoveries. Even things like the Ice Man tell us so much more about how our ancestors lived and survived. Clearly things in his day were not much better than today since it was found that he had an arrowhead imbedded in his chest cavity. Obviously we haven't changed much in 5000 years. LOL Anyway thanks for the discussion. I hope we haven't digressed too much. My appoligies to SpaceGuy. :=)

space guy I certainly cannot argue with that statement. LOL Again I apologize for kind of hi-jacking your link here. I tend to kind of run with something when it catches my interest.

The scientific research has been directed toward sorting out the natural causes of climate change from the man-made causes. Carbon dioxide has been identified as one of the main natural causes that amplifies the increasing solar energy received during the Milankovitch cycles - that led from the ice ages to the interglacial periods. Man is now releasing 30,000,000,000 tons of carbon dioxide each year into the atmosphere and the concentration in the last century has gone from about 280ppm to 390 ppm, warming the Earth through the greenhouse gas effect. You do believe the greenhouse gas effect is real, don't you?

There have been instances of much higher CO2 coupled with ice ages as well.

Reference please? That might be possible if there were high levels of particulates, but it does not show up in the ice core records for the last 800,000 years or in the CO2/ temperature reconsructions for the history of the Earth.

(#9.2) Man is now releasing 30,000,000,000 tons of carbon dioxide each year into the atmosphere

The above is a highly questionable claim concocted by partisan AGW’er via guesses, estimates, assumptions and their use of “fuzzy math” …. and disproved by the actual, factual 50+ year Recorded Record of the plotted atmospheric CO2 ppm data of the Keeling Curve.

(#9.2) and the concentration in the last century has gone from about 280ppm to 390 ppm, warming the Earth through the greenhouse gas effect.

Claiming that “the wagon is pulling the horse” is foolish at best. Foolish in the sense that for one thing it ignores and/or contradicts Henry’s Law.

Additionally, the past 200 years of increasing CO2 ppm is a direct result of the natural Interglacial warming of the earth’s land masses, near surface air temperatures and the lakes and ocean waters. Any increase in the yearly average surface temperatures (both land & water) and/or their bi-yearly seasonal duration will exacerbate the production of CO2 by the enhanced rotting, decaying and microbial consumption of terrestrial biomass and also the outgassing of CO2 from waters of oceans and lakes as per mandated by Henry’s Law.

(#9.2) You do believe the greenhouse gas effect is real, don't you?

To avert one’s eyes and mind to the “workings” of the “natural world” is a social and cultural travesty that can only be blamed on our Public Education System: mandating that all children/teenagers attend a public school but then failing to educate them with knowledge of any real value.

I am tired of continually providing these for you and then you forget about them and then move on to the next canard.

Short term dysfunctional memory problems, ether natural or intentional, is one reason that Public Educators have to keep decreasing their Grade Average Percentile ranking in order to give "passing" Grades to the majority of their students.